passion pg5
bob - redandy wrote:
1) Are you an expert in how much it takes to kill someone?
No but out of appreciation for this...
Satelite TV wrote
Quote:
You give up too easily Bob. We appreciate you thoughts on the film.
I'll watch it agin and describe what I see. Perhaps together we can decide whether the violence he endured was enough to kill a person 3, 4, 10 times over.
(Times are aproximate.)
13 minutes in: Struck in the back of the head with a heavy chain.
15 minutes in: Struck in the back of the head two more times. Repeatedly kicked and struck by a gang of soldiers.
16 mins in: Dropped some twenty feet or so off a bridge. His fall is "broken" by a chain wrapped around his waist. Probably enough force there to break his back I'd say but then again, like you say, I'm no expert.
25 mins in: Punched in the head. Hard
53 mins in. The serious beating starts as two large men take turns striking him on his bare back with sticks designed for that purpose. They hit him as hard as they can thirty times.
58 mins in: Jesus refuses to stay down so these same large, angry men go to work on him with what appear to me to be combination of whips and large meat tenderizing instruments. Much of the skin on Jesus back is peeled off.
61 mins in: The same process is repeated on his chest.
Somewhere in there they also rip much of the flesh off his legs.
64 mins in: He is dragged away leaving several pints of blood behind.
65 mins in: A crown of thorns is thrust onto his head. The thorns pierce his flesh. Hit on the head with a stick.
68 mins in: Punched in the head by a soldier.
Jesus is left to sit and bleed for what appears to be at least an hour.
70 mins in: A heavy cross is placed on his back and he is forced to carry it a long distance. He is whipped.
76 mins in: He is pushed to the ground and whipped. And whipped. More carrying, more falling, more whipping.
81 mins in: Still carrying. Still getting whipped. "Finally" Jesus can no longer go on and a peasant is enlisted to help carry the cross. More whipping.
82 mins in: Jesus falls down a set of stairs and is left to bleed in the dirt for a bit. He is kicked repeatedly.
86 mins in: The cross is placed on his back again and he is forced to carry it while enduring still more whipping.
90 mins in: Still carrying the cross but up a hill now. More whipping of course. Jesus falls on his face.
97 mins in: His left hand is nailed to the cross.
98 mins in: His right arm is pulled from its socket.
99 mins in: His right arm is nailed to the cross.
100 minutes in: His feet are nailed to the cross.
101 mins in: The cross is turned over and Jesus is allowed to bleed suspended upside down for a bit while they work on fastening him properly to the cross.
102: Cross turned over again and Jesus is allowed to fall hard on his back.
104: Finally the cross is errected.
108: He hangs there as day passes into night. Still not dead. Still conscious. Still talking.
112: Jesus dies.
According to scripture Jesus supposedly suffered and died as a human being. In this movie however he dies more in the fashion of Rambo. What was the point of that? Any rational, thinking person would have seen that his head would have been caved in and his back broken in the first 25 minutes and yet they had him enduring whippings and carrying a heavy cross god knows how many kilometers. His arm is torn from its socket and his hands and feet nailed down and "still" he is talking! Come on.
TainanCowboy - This thread has quickly become very insulting to those who have a personal belief in Jesus Christ and the Christian faith.
If you don't understand what was so very graphically depicted in the movie, realise that it is your lack of understanding which is troubling you and not what you are seeing on a movie screen. The suffering portrayed was the destiny of Jesus. He went to it knowing that thru this he would bear the burden of manking, so that through their faith and belief in Him and His Heavenly Father mankind could find forgiveness for their sins and life after their death.
Its is an act of personal faith. A personal choice to accept this. Maybe its not for everyone to accept this but the offer is available for all who chose to.
If you don't believe it - thats your choice. But please, knock off the thinly veiled insults and condescending cracks about those who do make this choice.
Religious intolerance takes many forms.
bob - Nonsense. It is this film that is an insult to people of faith and it is you whose understanding is limited.
"An archeological perspective on the Passion of the Christ" turned up this...
Quote:
Flogging and beating are attested in ancient sources, however, there are neither descriptions, pictorial representations, nor physical evidence for the brutal treatment that is used at length to such horrifying effect in The Passion's scourging scences.
The scriptures are quite terse in their rendition "...after having Jesus scouraged he [Pilate] delivered Him over to be crucified" Mathew 27:26. Had Jesus been tortured in an exceptional manner, this would presumably have been mentioned in the Gospels.
Film making is all about making choices and in every case Mel Gibson chose violence. About the arrest scence for example the Evangelical Church of America says this...
Quote:
The film contains numerous scenes that are not found in the New Testament. According to all four Gospels, after Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, he is taken by the (Jewish) guards to the High Priest. In the movie, the guards escorting Jesus brutally beat him, and, at one point, throw him over a bridge. The only reason he does not crash into the earth below is that his chains excruciatingly wrench him to a halt inches from the ground.
This episode appears nowhere in the New Testament. It is drawn from the visions of a 19th century mystic nun. None of the Gospels provides any information about what, if anything, occurs on the way from Gethsemane to the High Priest. It is conceivable that those who arrested Jesus might have abused him, but it is not the only option. It is equally plausible that the guards were sympathetic, even reluctant, to carry out their duty, and escorted Jesus to the High Priest gently and with dignity.
The point is that the Gospels do not report this one way or the other. It has been added by the filmmaker. While it certainly heightens the suffering of Jesus, which likely is why Gibson added it, it is, at the same time, an unnecessary embellishment and exaggeration of Jewish mistreatment of Jesus.
And according to the archeologists I mentioned before...
Quote:
The armed Jewish guards shown accompanying the high priests, who arrest and abuse Jesus, are pure fantasy. The Romans would never have allowed the Jews to have their own guards.
Why then does Gibson make these choices? Why does he, in fact, lie?
The archeologists went on to say...
Quote:
Because the gospel authors were writing for an audience who did not live at the time or in the place of the events they were narrating, they worked to put the events of Jesus trial and death within the larger historical context of his life and mission. In his own narrative choices, however, Mel Gibson has chosen to ignore what the gospel has chosen to supply..... Gibson has ripped this event from it's historical context and rendered it unintelligible, with no apparent reason for the crucifixion of Jesus aside from blaming evil Jews and Romans.
From Wikipedia..
Quote:
Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand, and a Christian rebellion on the other. However, historians hold that Pilate was known for his rough treatment of Jews in general, and was responsible for crucifying hundreds of Jews during his reign.
Quote:
The High Priest is shown as if he a were a member in good-standing of the Jewish community; historians note that the High Priest at the time was in the service of the Roman government, having been appointed by the Roman-client King Herod.
And from the Bible:
Quote:
A great multitude of the people (Lk. 23:27) and all the multitudes (Lk. 23:48) of Jews are sorrowful about Jesus' crucifixion.
Jesus' execution was done in haste (Mk.15:25; Jn 19:31).
Again, Gibson chooses to lie. For what? To illustrate the enormity of Jesus sacrifice? To show his love of Jesus? Or to indulge his anti-semitism and love of bloody torture scenes. You be the judge.
1) Are you an expert in how much it takes to kill someone?
No but out of appreciation for this...
Satelite TV wrote
Quote:
You give up too easily Bob. We appreciate you thoughts on the film.
I'll watch it agin and describe what I see. Perhaps together we can decide whether the violence he endured was enough to kill a person 3, 4, 10 times over.
(Times are aproximate.)
13 minutes in: Struck in the back of the head with a heavy chain.
15 minutes in: Struck in the back of the head two more times. Repeatedly kicked and struck by a gang of soldiers.
16 mins in: Dropped some twenty feet or so off a bridge. His fall is "broken" by a chain wrapped around his waist. Probably enough force there to break his back I'd say but then again, like you say, I'm no expert.
25 mins in: Punched in the head. Hard
53 mins in. The serious beating starts as two large men take turns striking him on his bare back with sticks designed for that purpose. They hit him as hard as they can thirty times.
58 mins in: Jesus refuses to stay down so these same large, angry men go to work on him with what appear to me to be combination of whips and large meat tenderizing instruments. Much of the skin on Jesus back is peeled off.
61 mins in: The same process is repeated on his chest.
Somewhere in there they also rip much of the flesh off his legs.
64 mins in: He is dragged away leaving several pints of blood behind.
65 mins in: A crown of thorns is thrust onto his head. The thorns pierce his flesh. Hit on the head with a stick.
68 mins in: Punched in the head by a soldier.
Jesus is left to sit and bleed for what appears to be at least an hour.
70 mins in: A heavy cross is placed on his back and he is forced to carry it a long distance. He is whipped.
76 mins in: He is pushed to the ground and whipped. And whipped. More carrying, more falling, more whipping.
81 mins in: Still carrying. Still getting whipped. "Finally" Jesus can no longer go on and a peasant is enlisted to help carry the cross. More whipping.
82 mins in: Jesus falls down a set of stairs and is left to bleed in the dirt for a bit. He is kicked repeatedly.
86 mins in: The cross is placed on his back again and he is forced to carry it while enduring still more whipping.
90 mins in: Still carrying the cross but up a hill now. More whipping of course. Jesus falls on his face.
97 mins in: His left hand is nailed to the cross.
98 mins in: His right arm is pulled from its socket.
99 mins in: His right arm is nailed to the cross.
100 minutes in: His feet are nailed to the cross.
101 mins in: The cross is turned over and Jesus is allowed to bleed suspended upside down for a bit while they work on fastening him properly to the cross.
102: Cross turned over again and Jesus is allowed to fall hard on his back.
104: Finally the cross is errected.
108: He hangs there as day passes into night. Still not dead. Still conscious. Still talking.
112: Jesus dies.
According to scripture Jesus supposedly suffered and died as a human being. In this movie however he dies more in the fashion of Rambo. What was the point of that? Any rational, thinking person would have seen that his head would have been caved in and his back broken in the first 25 minutes and yet they had him enduring whippings and carrying a heavy cross god knows how many kilometers. His arm is torn from its socket and his hands and feet nailed down and "still" he is talking! Come on.
TainanCowboy - This thread has quickly become very insulting to those who have a personal belief in Jesus Christ and the Christian faith.
If you don't understand what was so very graphically depicted in the movie, realise that it is your lack of understanding which is troubling you and not what you are seeing on a movie screen. The suffering portrayed was the destiny of Jesus. He went to it knowing that thru this he would bear the burden of manking, so that through their faith and belief in Him and His Heavenly Father mankind could find forgiveness for their sins and life after their death.
Its is an act of personal faith. A personal choice to accept this. Maybe its not for everyone to accept this but the offer is available for all who chose to.
If you don't believe it - thats your choice. But please, knock off the thinly veiled insults and condescending cracks about those who do make this choice.
Religious intolerance takes many forms.
bob - Nonsense. It is this film that is an insult to people of faith and it is you whose understanding is limited.
"An archeological perspective on the Passion of the Christ" turned up this...
Quote:
Flogging and beating are attested in ancient sources, however, there are neither descriptions, pictorial representations, nor physical evidence for the brutal treatment that is used at length to such horrifying effect in The Passion's scourging scences.
The scriptures are quite terse in their rendition "...after having Jesus scouraged he [Pilate] delivered Him over to be crucified" Mathew 27:26. Had Jesus been tortured in an exceptional manner, this would presumably have been mentioned in the Gospels.
Film making is all about making choices and in every case Mel Gibson chose violence. About the arrest scence for example the Evangelical Church of America says this...
Quote:
The film contains numerous scenes that are not found in the New Testament. According to all four Gospels, after Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, he is taken by the (Jewish) guards to the High Priest. In the movie, the guards escorting Jesus brutally beat him, and, at one point, throw him over a bridge. The only reason he does not crash into the earth below is that his chains excruciatingly wrench him to a halt inches from the ground.
This episode appears nowhere in the New Testament. It is drawn from the visions of a 19th century mystic nun. None of the Gospels provides any information about what, if anything, occurs on the way from Gethsemane to the High Priest. It is conceivable that those who arrested Jesus might have abused him, but it is not the only option. It is equally plausible that the guards were sympathetic, even reluctant, to carry out their duty, and escorted Jesus to the High Priest gently and with dignity.
The point is that the Gospels do not report this one way or the other. It has been added by the filmmaker. While it certainly heightens the suffering of Jesus, which likely is why Gibson added it, it is, at the same time, an unnecessary embellishment and exaggeration of Jewish mistreatment of Jesus.
And according to the archeologists I mentioned before...
Quote:
The armed Jewish guards shown accompanying the high priests, who arrest and abuse Jesus, are pure fantasy. The Romans would never have allowed the Jews to have their own guards.
Why then does Gibson make these choices? Why does he, in fact, lie?
The archeologists went on to say...
Quote:
Because the gospel authors were writing for an audience who did not live at the time or in the place of the events they were narrating, they worked to put the events of Jesus trial and death within the larger historical context of his life and mission. In his own narrative choices, however, Mel Gibson has chosen to ignore what the gospel has chosen to supply..... Gibson has ripped this event from it's historical context and rendered it unintelligible, with no apparent reason for the crucifixion of Jesus aside from blaming evil Jews and Romans.
From Wikipedia..
Quote:
Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a thoughtful, temperate man who ultimately agrees to crucify Jesus because he does not want to risk a Jewish rebellion on the one hand, and a Christian rebellion on the other. However, historians hold that Pilate was known for his rough treatment of Jews in general, and was responsible for crucifying hundreds of Jews during his reign.
Quote:
The High Priest is shown as if he a were a member in good-standing of the Jewish community; historians note that the High Priest at the time was in the service of the Roman government, having been appointed by the Roman-client King Herod.
And from the Bible:
Quote:
A great multitude of the people (Lk. 23:27) and all the multitudes (Lk. 23:48) of Jews are sorrowful about Jesus' crucifixion.
Jesus' execution was done in haste (Mk.15:25; Jn 19:31).
Again, Gibson chooses to lie. For what? To illustrate the enormity of Jesus sacrifice? To show his love of Jesus? Or to indulge his anti-semitism and love of bloody torture scenes. You be the judge.
posted by david at 3:37 AM
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