DVD discussion continued....
bob wrote - Wha'happened, thanks I will check that out. By the way I like to say that my mother's tongue is mostly densly packed muscle and nerve tissue wrapped in taste sensitive pink flesh.
TongAng - Don't confuse them with the facts. They are old people and any threat to their well established view of the world might throw them into some sort of fit. DVD provides an astounding learning opportunity for reasons that those knuckleheads haven't even begun to consider. At least you and I know it works because we have seen it work, evn if we can't explain how "yet".
Toe Save wrote - IMO, there are two distinct stages in the evolution of an English speaker: Learners and Users.
This island is filled with learners and very few users.
I believe that anything that promotes a discussion, is interactive and well thought out is of tremendous value to a wannabe user of an L2. I have yet to use DVD's as a teaching material, but I don't wholly discount it either. The way bob has laid it out can achieve every aspect of a lesson plan designed to encourage and develop language use.
Good on ya bob...
My question is, do you break up viewing into manageable bites for in-class viewing or show a whole episode/movie/video? Or is viewing done entirely on the students own time?
bob wrote - Good question. The answer is a bit vague though as it is dependant upon so many different factors. In class we are talking small bites - no more that 2-3 minutes. Nobody wants to pay a tecaher his salary while he sits there watching a flick, and anyway 2-3 minutes of film can contain a suprising amount of material. I think that people can decide for themselves how to proceed at home depending on their mood, personal study habits, contents of the film etc. This is not a simple process we are talking about here and anyone looking for a set procedure that is going to work for every film and every student is going to be disapointed. Generally I hope that they watch it once with the Chinese subtitle purely for enjoyment before settling down to the scenes that they want to really study. Aside from that there isn't much that seems to be "always" true aside from the fact that it makes sense to use the English subtitle and make notes concerning the vocabulary that interests you. Oh yeah, the reapeat function is a mighty handy function in practically all cases.
Back to top
Toe Save wrote - I will now disagree with you. If one is facilitating a group that are users (as opposed to learners), then IMHO, one must do all they can to discourage translation. I would suggest that they not use subtitles at all...but it totally depends on the individual in question.
The goal is to THINK in L2...If you speak another language, you will know that you really didn't become bilingual or at least proficient, until you could have your brain speak to you in your L2. French was that way for me. Studied it all my life, then moved to Calgary and never used it. When I returned to La Belle Province some 10 years later, I immersed myself in the language and discovered a noticable improvement once I heard myself thinking in French.
Translation deters and delays this goal.
Likewise, I never recommend the use of a Chinese -English dictionary...
Loretta wrote - My question is, do you break up viewing into manageable bites for in-class viewing or show a whole episode/movie/video? Or is viewing done entirely on the students own time?
Cracking contraptions! I am dying to use some of these in a class.
_________________
ImaniOU wrote - First of all outlaw Chinese English dictionaries. This is the biggest step of getting your students to stop thinking of the Chinese equivalent and to start using what they know in English to explain something unfamiliar in English.
I am still working on this with my fifth graders. They have been writing to penpals in America and still want direct Chinese-to-English translations of things that happen in their schools. I told them that it's better to just write the Chinese name and explain what happens to help their penpal understand.
bob wrote - Second language learning is most effective when it relates to the learner's total personality: his senses, emotions, hopes, fears, sense of humor and rhythm, to his intellect and to his first language. It is a mistake to presume that an "adult" second language learner is going to approach something as complicated and nuanced as a serious film without reference to his first language. Unlike a child an adult is not learning concepts and the sounds and structures related to those concepts. He already comprehends ideas like plot, theme, abstraction, justice, government, idiom, etc etc. The most direct route to the words that correspond to ideas like these in English is translation.
I have had an opportunity to discuss my DVD methodolgy with some seriously well educated and highly experienced ESL teachers recently. They have been very supportive of the basic idea but have also had one serious concern and that is that the students would simply be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of uncomprehensible input. One way to deal with this difficulty is by using an initial viewing of the film with Chinese subtitle to familiarize the student with the basic outline of the story and bring his attention to the portions of the film that could productively be focused upon. At this point the subtitle is switched to English.
I am not suggesting that I have all the answers here but I am ceratin that no one else does either. The difference between us is that I have been using DVD to teach adults for the last two years and in my experience an initial viewing with Chinese subtitle is useful unless the student is really quite advanced and familiar with colloquial English and exceedinly bright.
Loretta wrote - Would it be better to view the script first, so that they study the language without all the other distractions? Then you show the clip to put it all into context. If they already know what is going to be said they know what to listen for.
That has to be better than waiting for whatever they have translated the Chinese into. I agree with Imani (&Toe?) about not using Chinese-English dictionaries, and if you start with the language written down then they can analyse and break it down as much as is necessary, but all in English and using a good learner's dictionary.
If you have a script it makes it easier to recreate the action in the classroom too. You could start by supplying a script with bits missing, and have them guess what goes in the blanks. Then play the audio only. Eventually, you progress to the clip - maybe after showing them a few stills from the scene.
I would use non-mainstream movies too. Or have you thought of using TV adverts that are particularly representative of a culture? Not the "buy today while stocks last" rubbish, but the ones that will give an insight into how these crazy foreigners live.
_________________
bob wrote - Sounds like interesting in class stratagies Strag but I think the original question was more concerned with how students should proceed at home. Considering time restraints, student motivations (frequently just to enjoy a film at the outset), aptitude etc. I still believe the initial viewing with Chinese subtitle is what you will actually get them to do at home on their own. I love your ideas for in class activities though. In the past I have experimented with gradually adding context (sound/ picture/English subtitle) etc. and in different orders. It is a good way to make students aware of just how rich the context actually is and how dependant the meaning frequently is upon that context.
It is nice to see that a few of you are giving this idea of using DVD some serious thought. I think you will be suprised at the number of interesting possibilities that it provides (most of which I am too burned out to think of myself at this point).
bob wrote - I've been giving this translation/no translation thing some pretty serious thought today so if you'll bear with me for a bit I think I can wrap this up pretty well.
First of all I think it has to be admitted that it is pretty difficult for anyone to learn something that he hasn't noticed and consciously focused on for a while. Lets take an easy, obvious example like the expression "Hao jiu bu jian." There are basically two ways that an English speaking person would learn an expresion like this. The first is that he would go from English to Chinese, perhaps by asking his Chinese friend "How do you say 'long time no see in English?'" or by encountering the word in a Mandarin textbook. The other way would be that he would be continually confronted with the expression and develop some curiosity as to it's meaning. He would then be most likely to ask someone to translate it into English. Both of these processes invlove translation.
After this he would go about his day to day life and he would inevitably hear the expression again. The first few times he heard it he would be thrown into a situation where he would have to decide whether or not he had heard the expression before. This is what happens to second language learners. If he decided that he knew the expression it would be because he could translate it.
To ignore these basic facts of how a second language is learned, especially by beginner and intermediate level students, is just maddness in my opinion; however, it is also true that people frequently learn something in a second language with no immediate referance to translation and there is indeed something almost transcendant about that experience. It certainly makes the vocabulary more memorable. To take another mundane example I can remember when I first came to Taiwan I was particularly eager to see just how fast I could hike the local mountain trails. It wasn't long before I had heard (you guessed it) "Jia you!" about a thousand times, and given the encouraging tone with which the expression was delivered it wasn't long before I got what it meant. It took a couple of weeks for me to realize that I didn't know exactly how to translate it. "Don't give up!" seemed not to quite catch the spirit of the phrase and nither did "Keep it up!" or "You are almost there!" I still don't know exactly how to translate it.
If I could learn everything in Chinese like this I would be thrilled but to be honest I just don't think it is possible. It really is impossible for me to imagine learning "Bi zui!" or "Jie guo" or a thousand other expressions without at some point attempting to find an English equivalent. This is a big part of what we mean when we say that we know what a word or expression means in another language.
This is a complicated business we are involved in here folks. Lets not betray our ignorance of that fact by insisting on absolutes.
TongAng - Don't confuse them with the facts. They are old people and any threat to their well established view of the world might throw them into some sort of fit. DVD provides an astounding learning opportunity for reasons that those knuckleheads haven't even begun to consider. At least you and I know it works because we have seen it work, evn if we can't explain how "yet".
Toe Save wrote - IMO, there are two distinct stages in the evolution of an English speaker: Learners and Users.
This island is filled with learners and very few users.
I believe that anything that promotes a discussion, is interactive and well thought out is of tremendous value to a wannabe user of an L2. I have yet to use DVD's as a teaching material, but I don't wholly discount it either. The way bob has laid it out can achieve every aspect of a lesson plan designed to encourage and develop language use.
Good on ya bob...
My question is, do you break up viewing into manageable bites for in-class viewing or show a whole episode/movie/video? Or is viewing done entirely on the students own time?
bob wrote - Good question. The answer is a bit vague though as it is dependant upon so many different factors. In class we are talking small bites - no more that 2-3 minutes. Nobody wants to pay a tecaher his salary while he sits there watching a flick, and anyway 2-3 minutes of film can contain a suprising amount of material. I think that people can decide for themselves how to proceed at home depending on their mood, personal study habits, contents of the film etc. This is not a simple process we are talking about here and anyone looking for a set procedure that is going to work for every film and every student is going to be disapointed. Generally I hope that they watch it once with the Chinese subtitle purely for enjoyment before settling down to the scenes that they want to really study. Aside from that there isn't much that seems to be "always" true aside from the fact that it makes sense to use the English subtitle and make notes concerning the vocabulary that interests you. Oh yeah, the reapeat function is a mighty handy function in practically all cases.
Back to top
Toe Save wrote - I will now disagree with you. If one is facilitating a group that are users (as opposed to learners), then IMHO, one must do all they can to discourage translation. I would suggest that they not use subtitles at all...but it totally depends on the individual in question.
The goal is to THINK in L2...If you speak another language, you will know that you really didn't become bilingual or at least proficient, until you could have your brain speak to you in your L2. French was that way for me. Studied it all my life, then moved to Calgary and never used it. When I returned to La Belle Province some 10 years later, I immersed myself in the language and discovered a noticable improvement once I heard myself thinking in French.
Translation deters and delays this goal.
Likewise, I never recommend the use of a Chinese -English dictionary...
Loretta wrote - My question is, do you break up viewing into manageable bites for in-class viewing or show a whole episode/movie/video? Or is viewing done entirely on the students own time?
Cracking contraptions! I am dying to use some of these in a class.
_________________
ImaniOU wrote - First of all outlaw Chinese English dictionaries. This is the biggest step of getting your students to stop thinking of the Chinese equivalent and to start using what they know in English to explain something unfamiliar in English.
I am still working on this with my fifth graders. They have been writing to penpals in America and still want direct Chinese-to-English translations of things that happen in their schools. I told them that it's better to just write the Chinese name and explain what happens to help their penpal understand.
bob wrote - Second language learning is most effective when it relates to the learner's total personality: his senses, emotions, hopes, fears, sense of humor and rhythm, to his intellect and to his first language. It is a mistake to presume that an "adult" second language learner is going to approach something as complicated and nuanced as a serious film without reference to his first language. Unlike a child an adult is not learning concepts and the sounds and structures related to those concepts. He already comprehends ideas like plot, theme, abstraction, justice, government, idiom, etc etc. The most direct route to the words that correspond to ideas like these in English is translation.
I have had an opportunity to discuss my DVD methodolgy with some seriously well educated and highly experienced ESL teachers recently. They have been very supportive of the basic idea but have also had one serious concern and that is that the students would simply be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of uncomprehensible input. One way to deal with this difficulty is by using an initial viewing of the film with Chinese subtitle to familiarize the student with the basic outline of the story and bring his attention to the portions of the film that could productively be focused upon. At this point the subtitle is switched to English.
I am not suggesting that I have all the answers here but I am ceratin that no one else does either. The difference between us is that I have been using DVD to teach adults for the last two years and in my experience an initial viewing with Chinese subtitle is useful unless the student is really quite advanced and familiar with colloquial English and exceedinly bright.
Loretta wrote - Would it be better to view the script first, so that they study the language without all the other distractions? Then you show the clip to put it all into context. If they already know what is going to be said they know what to listen for.
That has to be better than waiting for whatever they have translated the Chinese into. I agree with Imani (&Toe?) about not using Chinese-English dictionaries, and if you start with the language written down then they can analyse and break it down as much as is necessary, but all in English and using a good learner's dictionary.
If you have a script it makes it easier to recreate the action in the classroom too. You could start by supplying a script with bits missing, and have them guess what goes in the blanks. Then play the audio only. Eventually, you progress to the clip - maybe after showing them a few stills from the scene.
I would use non-mainstream movies too. Or have you thought of using TV adverts that are particularly representative of a culture? Not the "buy today while stocks last" rubbish, but the ones that will give an insight into how these crazy foreigners live.
_________________
bob wrote - Sounds like interesting in class stratagies Strag but I think the original question was more concerned with how students should proceed at home. Considering time restraints, student motivations (frequently just to enjoy a film at the outset), aptitude etc. I still believe the initial viewing with Chinese subtitle is what you will actually get them to do at home on their own. I love your ideas for in class activities though. In the past I have experimented with gradually adding context (sound/ picture/English subtitle) etc. and in different orders. It is a good way to make students aware of just how rich the context actually is and how dependant the meaning frequently is upon that context.
It is nice to see that a few of you are giving this idea of using DVD some serious thought. I think you will be suprised at the number of interesting possibilities that it provides (most of which I am too burned out to think of myself at this point).
bob wrote - I've been giving this translation/no translation thing some pretty serious thought today so if you'll bear with me for a bit I think I can wrap this up pretty well.
First of all I think it has to be admitted that it is pretty difficult for anyone to learn something that he hasn't noticed and consciously focused on for a while. Lets take an easy, obvious example like the expression "Hao jiu bu jian." There are basically two ways that an English speaking person would learn an expresion like this. The first is that he would go from English to Chinese, perhaps by asking his Chinese friend "How do you say 'long time no see in English?'" or by encountering the word in a Mandarin textbook. The other way would be that he would be continually confronted with the expression and develop some curiosity as to it's meaning. He would then be most likely to ask someone to translate it into English. Both of these processes invlove translation.
After this he would go about his day to day life and he would inevitably hear the expression again. The first few times he heard it he would be thrown into a situation where he would have to decide whether or not he had heard the expression before. This is what happens to second language learners. If he decided that he knew the expression it would be because he could translate it.
To ignore these basic facts of how a second language is learned, especially by beginner and intermediate level students, is just maddness in my opinion; however, it is also true that people frequently learn something in a second language with no immediate referance to translation and there is indeed something almost transcendant about that experience. It certainly makes the vocabulary more memorable. To take another mundane example I can remember when I first came to Taiwan I was particularly eager to see just how fast I could hike the local mountain trails. It wasn't long before I had heard (you guessed it) "Jia you!" about a thousand times, and given the encouraging tone with which the expression was delivered it wasn't long before I got what it meant. It took a couple of weeks for me to realize that I didn't know exactly how to translate it. "Don't give up!" seemed not to quite catch the spirit of the phrase and nither did "Keep it up!" or "You are almost there!" I still don't know exactly how to translate it.
If I could learn everything in Chinese like this I would be thrilled but to be honest I just don't think it is possible. It really is impossible for me to imagine learning "Bi zui!" or "Jie guo" or a thousand other expressions without at some point attempting to find an English equivalent. This is a big part of what we mean when we say that we know what a word or expression means in another language.
This is a complicated business we are involved in here folks. Lets not betray our ignorance of that fact by insisting on absolutes.
posted by david at 1:29 AM
0 Comments:
Post a Comment
<< Home