stuff of life extended version
This stuff of life stuff is sure complicated. Brain chemistry affects your thoughts and emotions and the the thoughts you choose and the feelings associated with them in turn affect your brain chemistry. And of course all of this takes place within a physical and social environment which also affects thoughts, emotions and brain chemistry. You can step in at any point and change things. You can choose to think differently or move into or create a different environment. You can work with the brain chemistry directly. Or, ideally, you can do all three simultaneously. For myself I just realized that I had gotten awfully tired of feeling listless and irritable all the time. Buddhist psychology, exercise, creative activity, and yes, prozac, have given me an entirely more positive outlook on life. I break them in half and take two or three a week. It is a minuscule dose but it seems to have a positive effect. It seems to me like such a terrible waste if a person needs this kind of medication and doesn't get it, which is why I reacted so negatively to it being called "shit" earlier. And nobody is "a" depressive. We are all so much more than that.
Southpaw wrote - You took me the wrong way bob- 'shit' is an incredibly flexible word nowadays. I meant it as 'stuff'. As for using 'a', it comes from studying depression as a part of my psychology degree- a bad habit I suppose. But based on this logic a we shouldn't call a murderer a murderer and we shouldnt call a spade a spade.
bob wrote - Sorry if I seem overly particular in this regard but I believe that it is extremely important to frame these things in the right language. People who suffer from depression frequently hang on to a lot of unhealthy thought patterns. I am useless. I always fuck up etc. A big part of recovery involves learning to simply think differently. Nobody is "a" depressive. They suffer from depression. Partly because they earned somewhere to be overly critical of themselves. They can unlearn that habit and a good place to start on that unlearning process is with standing up to negative labels imposed by other people That is what I am doing here and it feels great.
bob wrote - Sorry if I seem overly particular in this regard but I believe that it is extremely important to frame these things in the right language. People who suffer from depion frequently hang on to a lot of unhealthy thought patterns. I am useless. I always fuck up etc. A big part of recovery involves learning to simply think differently. Nobody is "a" depressive. They suffer from depression. Partly because they earned somewhere to be overly critical of themselves. They can unlearn that habit and a good place to start on that unlearning process is with standing up to negative labels imposed by other people That is what I am doing here and it feels great.
Namahottie wrote -Bravo! Bravo! Right on bob...I know that has been a large part of my problem as I get older and more observant of my depression . Jlick, hit it also. What its going to take is to do something comprehensive which doctors wont do(because they are too busy too) to find out their patient's cause and reason for depression.
I actually spoke with a therapist recently who posed a question to me about a case he had heard. A young girl witnessed her twin being smothered to death next to her. The doctor talking about the subject comment that the girl would have to be on antidepressants for quite a period of time in order for her life to be 'normal'. That just pushed a big button to me because it is just rank of how American doctors are thinking. They are believing that these pills are the answer and ignoring all other aspects that contribute to humans. Funny, I would like to see the studies they come out with on kids who have been on ritlian for years, when they were actually 'normal' and to see how their brains have altered because of the influence of drugs had on them....
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bob wrote - Absolutely. We are dealing with profound, complicated issues here. Giving that girl antidepressants may interrupt the grieving process so completely that she never really heals. In my case it is entirely clear that a delicate balance has to be maintained. Too much and I start feeling kind of detached and (to be honest) egotistical. It really is a lonely feeling. Too little though and things start looking terribly bleak. We are beyond lucky to have these drugs at our disposal but caution has to be the order of the day.
hoedad wrote - Insomnia is a common side-effect of Prozac. Change your dose to the morning and you should be fine. If that doesn't work, you can also get something to help you sleep, like Ativan, Xanax, or Clonzazepam (Klonopin).
Somebody wrote - Wow! No criticism of LittelBuddha, just quoting him to capture the tone of the thread.
My goodness ladies and gentlemen, are we SOOO fucked up that we need to dose ourselves with the drug(s) of the year on a daily basis? Why not try simply suffering through whatever emotional pain it is you're experiencing? Might not you learn something?
With all due respect to those who truly benefit by 'drug therapy' under extraordinary circumstances, I question the rate at which an increasing number of relatively healthy people are turning to these drugs rather than confronting the true causes of their symptoms.
Hey, I like drugs. I like them a lot. I used to abuse them often. And if you ask me, all the drugs you're talking about here are total crap. Valium? Prozac? What garbage! Why not just put yourself in a straight jacket and bang your head against the wall.
You are poster children of the drug industry and the global economists. You perceive that you are anxious and depressed, and rather than wonder why and try to do something about it, you take 'the little pill' produced by the source of your problem! Amazing. Depression and anxiety are common symptoms for those of us living in modern, fast paced, urban environments. When I feel overly anxious and depressed, I generally find that quitting my job and/or moving to a new environment helps (assuming I can't change the factors of job/environment that I perceive are causing the problems).
Beyond that, personal tragedy is a fact of life. We all must experience it. A drug, or a cocktail of drugs, will never protect you from it. Bob says that:
Quote:
Too little though and things start looking terribly bleak.
Well, yes, things are bleak. They're very f***ing bleak. That is life. It's bleak shit. We live, eat, sleep, shit, and die. But we expect constant excitement, stimulation, and good movies. Bob is right. Life is bleak. Perhaps once we come to terms with that, we can start to really appreciate the beauty that is this life. But, if we're zoned out on Prozac and whatnot, we simply block the bleakness and never really break through.
Again, with all due respect to those who truly benefit from such drugs...
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jlick wrote - Ah yes, just a few posts after my post about the fallacy of making sweeping generalizations about what treatment is appropriate, you go and make a sweeping generalization that most people on Prozac shouldn't be. I agree that there is a tendency to treat anyone feeling down with anti-depressants, but despite your disclaimers, your post is insulting to those whose depression is sometimes so great that they can't function in life.
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bob wrote -
Yes hoedad we all know that life can be a bitch and we all know about the stresses of modern life and we know that we need to be looking for peaceful, tranquil surroundings and listening to our inner selves and attempting to achieve harmonious relations with others, and we know about the benefits of exercise and meditation. And we know that you can learn so much by living through difficult times. We know so goddamed much and we still feel like hell so we came to the conclusion that a couple of chemicals were out of whack. And from our experience that seems like the correct conclusion. We are now happier and more useful to ourselves and our loved ones. What was your objection again exactly?
Namahottie wrote - Hoedad, it not as simple as you put it. It's not always emotional pain, and it's not always chemical. Sometimes it's a little bit of both. You post bothers me a little because it come across as someone who hasn't been there or lack compassion enough to see what may bring someone to have to use these recourses. Using prozac or any other drug is simply a step. ANyone who truly desires to remove themselves from a certain level of stress that life brings would be wise to use them until they are at a better level. It's easy to say to suffer through that emotional pain and learn something. But what if that emotional pain clouds your mind so much that you can't learn anything because the stress is creating a malfunction in your body? These drugs work on a level to correct your system, that's if you can find the right dosage and have the correct support system. Otherwise yes, you can be a poster child for these drugs. Hoedad, you need to listen more in this case, because I don't think the shit has hit the fan in your life yet......
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hoedad wrote - Quote: We are now happier and more useful to ourselves and our loved ones. What was your objection again exactly?
Quote: These drugs work on a level to correct your system, that's if you can find the right dosage and have the correct support system. Otherwise yes, you can be a poster child for these drugs. Hoedad, you need to listen more in this case, because I don't think the shit has hit the fan in your life yet......
You're both right. I was being an insensitive twit.
_________________
bob wrote - Which brings us full circle back to the good part of hoedads original post. Personally I think I probably need less medication here. It was the West that drove me nuts in the first place.
Southpaw wrote - You took me the wrong way bob- 'shit' is an incredibly flexible word nowadays. I meant it as 'stuff'. As for using 'a', it comes from studying depression as a part of my psychology degree- a bad habit I suppose. But based on this logic a we shouldn't call a murderer a murderer and we shouldnt call a spade a spade.
bob wrote - Sorry if I seem overly particular in this regard but I believe that it is extremely important to frame these things in the right language. People who suffer from depression frequently hang on to a lot of unhealthy thought patterns. I am useless. I always fuck up etc. A big part of recovery involves learning to simply think differently. Nobody is "a" depressive. They suffer from depression. Partly because they earned somewhere to be overly critical of themselves. They can unlearn that habit and a good place to start on that unlearning process is with standing up to negative labels imposed by other people That is what I am doing here and it feels great.
bob wrote - Sorry if I seem overly particular in this regard but I believe that it is extremely important to frame these things in the right language. People who suffer from depion frequently hang on to a lot of unhealthy thought patterns. I am useless. I always fuck up etc. A big part of recovery involves learning to simply think differently. Nobody is "a" depressive. They suffer from depression. Partly because they earned somewhere to be overly critical of themselves. They can unlearn that habit and a good place to start on that unlearning process is with standing up to negative labels imposed by other people That is what I am doing here and it feels great.
Namahottie wrote -Bravo! Bravo! Right on bob...I know that has been a large part of my problem as I get older and more observant of my depression . Jlick, hit it also. What its going to take is to do something comprehensive which doctors wont do(because they are too busy too) to find out their patient's cause and reason for depression.
I actually spoke with a therapist recently who posed a question to me about a case he had heard. A young girl witnessed her twin being smothered to death next to her. The doctor talking about the subject comment that the girl would have to be on antidepressants for quite a period of time in order for her life to be 'normal'. That just pushed a big button to me because it is just rank of how American doctors are thinking. They are believing that these pills are the answer and ignoring all other aspects that contribute to humans. Funny, I would like to see the studies they come out with on kids who have been on ritlian for years, when they were actually 'normal' and to see how their brains have altered because of the influence of drugs had on them....
_________________
bob wrote - Absolutely. We are dealing with profound, complicated issues here. Giving that girl antidepressants may interrupt the grieving process so completely that she never really heals. In my case it is entirely clear that a delicate balance has to be maintained. Too much and I start feeling kind of detached and (to be honest) egotistical. It really is a lonely feeling. Too little though and things start looking terribly bleak. We are beyond lucky to have these drugs at our disposal but caution has to be the order of the day.
hoedad wrote - Insomnia is a common side-effect of Prozac. Change your dose to the morning and you should be fine. If that doesn't work, you can also get something to help you sleep, like Ativan, Xanax, or Clonzazepam (Klonopin).
Somebody wrote - Wow! No criticism of LittelBuddha, just quoting him to capture the tone of the thread.
My goodness ladies and gentlemen, are we SOOO fucked up that we need to dose ourselves with the drug(s) of the year on a daily basis? Why not try simply suffering through whatever emotional pain it is you're experiencing? Might not you learn something?
With all due respect to those who truly benefit by 'drug therapy' under extraordinary circumstances, I question the rate at which an increasing number of relatively healthy people are turning to these drugs rather than confronting the true causes of their symptoms.
Hey, I like drugs. I like them a lot. I used to abuse them often. And if you ask me, all the drugs you're talking about here are total crap. Valium? Prozac? What garbage! Why not just put yourself in a straight jacket and bang your head against the wall.
You are poster children of the drug industry and the global economists. You perceive that you are anxious and depressed, and rather than wonder why and try to do something about it, you take 'the little pill' produced by the source of your problem! Amazing. Depression and anxiety are common symptoms for those of us living in modern, fast paced, urban environments. When I feel overly anxious and depressed, I generally find that quitting my job and/or moving to a new environment helps (assuming I can't change the factors of job/environment that I perceive are causing the problems).
Beyond that, personal tragedy is a fact of life. We all must experience it. A drug, or a cocktail of drugs, will never protect you from it. Bob says that:
Quote:
Too little though and things start looking terribly bleak.
Well, yes, things are bleak. They're very f***ing bleak. That is life. It's bleak shit. We live, eat, sleep, shit, and die. But we expect constant excitement, stimulation, and good movies. Bob is right. Life is bleak. Perhaps once we come to terms with that, we can start to really appreciate the beauty that is this life. But, if we're zoned out on Prozac and whatnot, we simply block the bleakness and never really break through.
Again, with all due respect to those who truly benefit from such drugs...
_________________
jlick wrote - Ah yes, just a few posts after my post about the fallacy of making sweeping generalizations about what treatment is appropriate, you go and make a sweeping generalization that most people on Prozac shouldn't be. I agree that there is a tendency to treat anyone feeling down with anti-depressants, but despite your disclaimers, your post is insulting to those whose depression is sometimes so great that they can't function in life.
_________________
bob wrote -
Yes hoedad we all know that life can be a bitch and we all know about the stresses of modern life and we know that we need to be looking for peaceful, tranquil surroundings and listening to our inner selves and attempting to achieve harmonious relations with others, and we know about the benefits of exercise and meditation. And we know that you can learn so much by living through difficult times. We know so goddamed much and we still feel like hell so we came to the conclusion that a couple of chemicals were out of whack. And from our experience that seems like the correct conclusion. We are now happier and more useful to ourselves and our loved ones. What was your objection again exactly?
Namahottie wrote - Hoedad, it not as simple as you put it. It's not always emotional pain, and it's not always chemical. Sometimes it's a little bit of both. You post bothers me a little because it come across as someone who hasn't been there or lack compassion enough to see what may bring someone to have to use these recourses. Using prozac or any other drug is simply a step. ANyone who truly desires to remove themselves from a certain level of stress that life brings would be wise to use them until they are at a better level. It's easy to say to suffer through that emotional pain and learn something. But what if that emotional pain clouds your mind so much that you can't learn anything because the stress is creating a malfunction in your body? These drugs work on a level to correct your system, that's if you can find the right dosage and have the correct support system. Otherwise yes, you can be a poster child for these drugs. Hoedad, you need to listen more in this case, because I don't think the shit has hit the fan in your life yet......
_________________
hoedad wrote - Quote: We are now happier and more useful to ourselves and our loved ones. What was your objection again exactly?
Quote: These drugs work on a level to correct your system, that's if you can find the right dosage and have the correct support system. Otherwise yes, you can be a poster child for these drugs. Hoedad, you need to listen more in this case, because I don't think the shit has hit the fan in your life yet......
You're both right. I was being an insensitive twit.
_________________
bob wrote - Which brings us full circle back to the good part of hoedads original post. Personally I think I probably need less medication here. It was the West that drove me nuts in the first place.
posted by david at 4:01 AM
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